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Saturday, September 19, 2009


From time to time I have spent a few minutes commenting on recent LibDem blogs helpfully available here. My most common thread has been to find if there is any LibDem anywhere defend the war against Yugoslavia?

The answer is no. Zilch, nada, zero, nobody among "LibDem" bloggers feels capable of defending it.

Worse for anybody claiming to be "liberal" the overwhelming majority simply censor the question. Naming the guilty -

LIBERAL DEMOCRAT VOICE:our place to talk
FREEDOM CENTRAL Irony clearly lost on them
DAVE'S FREE PRESS or otherwise

It says much about a self styled "liberal" group that not only can none of them defend this war but that the knee jerk reaction of 90%+ of "liberal democrat" bloggers is to censor the question. Most of the rest simply ignore it.

I have made my beliefs clear repeatedly - that I accept the precedent established at the Nurmeburg Trial - that the attack on Yugoslavia was aggressive & hence a war crime; that the deliberate bombing of Serbian cities was civilian bombing & hence a war crime; that the Dragodan Massacre took place & is hence a crime against humanity; that extensive racial murder (ie genocide, a crime against humanity) took place under NATO rule; that the ethnic cleansing of approxiamately 350,000 people took place (ie genocide); that the kidnapping & dissection of living human beings took place under NATO authority which is a crime against humanity. That the LibDems deliberately supported this war & its consequences is prima faci evidence of guilt. Moreover the party, unlike the other parties, have made it a condition of membership that one personally support these atrocities.

Consequently the fact that not one member of the party feels able to dispute the reality of these crimes or the party's complicity is important. I have, of course, previously contacted all MPs & MSPs & not one of them felt able to dispute complicity in war crimes & racial genocide either. The overwhelming opinion of party bloggers in what has traditionaly claimed to be a movement supporting liberal values, is that they cannot disagree on a factual basis that their leaders are genocidal Nazi war criminals & must resort to censorship.

True colours of a party whose every single member is, officially, a racist, Nazi, child raping, genocidal, organlegger & whose every single member feels they cannot factually say otherwise.

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Neil the reason why people censor your comments is that you post the same crap on every post.
That's not being illiberal, just a sensible spam policy.
And on not one of them has any member of the LibDems attempted to make any factual dispute that the entire party are racists involved in genocide.

I note that includes you Ryan. You must be so proud.
"...the reason why people censor your comments is that you post the same crap on every post."

Ryan's definition of the word "crap", above:

Any and every comment repeatedly removed or blocked by the LibDem bloggers exposing the LibDems as supporters of Albanian KLA Nazis involved in child rape, genocide and dissection of living teenage human beings for their bodily organs to be forcibly removed and sold to Western hospitals on the black market by the Albanian Nazi KLA mafia with the full knowledge of Western leaders.

As a former British diplomat (NB said by many to be 'pro-Serb'!) I have followed the Kosovo issue on and off for over 25 years. I was one of the first foreign diplomats into Kosovo after the state of emergency was lifted there following the 'disturbances' of 1981.

The one utterly indisputable fact in this sorry story is that for decades successive leaderships in Belgrade failed to extend a sensible hand of friendship and reconciliation towards their Albanian fellow-citizens. Instead they treated them as some sort of inferior race.

Even after Milosevic fell, President Kostunica had no policy for behaving in a positive, reasonable way towards Albanian people in Serbia, even though they were his own voters! I know because I was there and watched it all at very close quarters.

Basically, Serbia blew it, to the point of making even the KLA seem reasonable.

I have thought about this long and hard and just can't explain it to myself: how could smart and otherwise decent people take such ruinously counter-productive positions for so long? But they did.

Check out that vital Balkan 'inat' word and all will be clearer.

Plenty about all this on my own site under the Balkanic Eruptions tag:


Charles Crawford
HM Ambassador to Sarajevo (1996-98) and Belgrade (2001-03)

The only reason I did not also delete your comments is because I was away without easy access to the internet. Had I been around I would have deleted them as they were completely off-topic for the posts.

From now on though I will delete any comments you add to my posts unless they are related to the topic posted about.
I'll check out your site but I would dispute your claim. Milosevic came to power following attacks by the Albanian police in Kosovo on local Serbs. This was merely the end of a long era of the ethnic Albanian government running an openly racist & fairly violent & fraudulent local regime there. While ethnic tensions exist everywhere, including London, the record of the Serbs towards the Albanians is rather good. Possibly to good for their own interests since they allowed effectively free immigration from Albania.

You will not deny that there are, even now, 50,000 Albanians living in Belgrade & not eager to return to their liberated homeland. It being the only multi-ethnic capital remaining in former Yugoslavia. This itself says exactly what we did & what sort of Nazis we made use of across Yugoslavia.

Do you think that the Brtish people would be equally kindly if Pakistani immigants had collaborated with Germany to ethnicly cleanse Yorkshire of its original inhabitants & set up a racist Moslem regime? I very much doubt it but that is what has been done to the Serbs & what they have NOT taken revenge for.

Unless you dispute that the KLA have engaged in massacres, genocide, ethnic cleansing, sexual enslavement of schoolgirls & dissecting living people for organs (both during the terrorism & after being appointed NATO "police") I simply cannot accept the KLA "seem reasonable".

If that is evidence of being "pro-Serb" in the British Foreign Service it suggests most people there indeed share the view the entire race are Untermensch.
"The one utterly indisputable fact in this sorry story is that for decades successive leaderships in Belgrade failed to extend a sensible hand of friendship and reconciliation towards their Albanian fellow-citizens. Instead they treated them as some sort of inferior race."

Typical egregious British Foreign Office LIE.The FO have a rather nasty history of supporting the vilest criminal regimes and mass murderers on the face of this earth so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest to read such rubbish from a former British FO official.

In reality it was the Albanian Nazi Terrorist Drug-Dealing, Child-Raping, Mass Murdering KLA and its supporters among the separatist Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija as well as across the border in Enver Hoxha's Albania who were oppressing the heroic Christian Serbs and subjecting them to Genocide and so-called "ethnic cleansing"!

Readers of this blog should read the following excellent article - all backed up with documented evidence - if they want the facts:

The Serbs Were Not Oppressing the Kosovo Albanians... Quite the opposite


On March 24th 1999, NATO began bombing civilian Serbia because, it claimed, this was the only way to stop widespread ethnic cleansing against Albanians by the Yugoslav government.

Ordinary Westerners accepted this.

One cannot blame them, exactly. For years, the Western media had been alleging that nationalist unrest by separatist Albanians in Kosovo stemmed from the fact that they were supposedly a besieged minority, persecuted by an ultranationalist Serbian state. Given this media barrage, by the time NATO bombed Serbia, the Western public easily believed NATO's claims that this was necessary to prevent a genocide against Albanian civilians in Kosovo.

But suppose I told you that the following list summarizes the political facts in Kosovo in 1981, when the separatist activity by radical Albanians began in earnest:

(1) Kosovo Albanians controlled the provincial government;

(2) Kosovo Albanians controlled the cultural institutions;

(3) Albanian was the official language in the province (and in fact Serbs in Kosovo were forced to learn Albanian, not the other way around);

(4) Education was conducted in Albanian;

(5) Albanians were the overwhelming majority of students at Pristina University;

(6) Albanians were the overwhelming majority in the Kosovo police force;

(7) As The Economist reported in 1981, "Mr Fadil Hoxha [was] a member of Jugoslavia's collective state presidency and a Kosovo Albanian." What does this mean? The collective presidency of the Yugoslav federation was composed of representatives from its constituent republics, and also representatives from Kosovo and Vojvodina. However, Kosovo and Vojvodina were not republics of Yugoslavia but provinces of Serbia. Thus, Kosovo was treated as if it were a republic of Yugoslavia as far as the collective presidency of the federation was concerned.

(8) Since 1974, the Kosovo parliament in Pristina (Kosovo's capital) could veto decisions taken in Belgrade that corresponded to the entire Republic of Serbia (of which Kosovo is a province), but Belgrade had no say on matters that were decided in Pristina (!).

(9) Albanians were discriminating against Serbs in industry and in the political administration.

(10) Kosovo Serbs, apparently starting in the 1970s, were subjected to low-level terrorism and harassment by either the Albanian KLA or its precursors. This caused a trickle, then a flood of Kosovo Serbs to flee the province out of fear for their lives.

Is this the picture of an oppressed Albanian minority in Serbia? Or is this the picture of an oppressed Serbian minority in Kosovo?

I have lived in different parts of the former Yugoslavia space for some eight years and worked on the issues in London for several more. I speak Serbo-Croat-Bosnian. What exactly is your own first-hand knowledge of the region, please?

Sure, it's really complicated in many respects. But it also is quite simple.

The Serbs as the largest community in former Yugoslavia had the opportunity and the political weight to define the future of that part of Europe. Instead they fell for lumpen national-socialism led by Milosevic, a deeply disturbed man married to an even more disturbed wife.

That happened for one quite interesting and little-understood reason. Back in the early 1970s there was a Belgrade Spring, echoing the 1968 Prague Spring, when hundreds of liberal-minded communists started pushing for real reform.

Tito duly purged thousands of them from the Party, which meant that in the next two decades the Serbian Communist Party was led by dullards and fifth-raters prone to stupid repressive policies such as Milosevic started to offer in the later 1980s. This stopped Serbia offering credible modern policies when Yugoslavia started to break up. Not that weak EU/US dithering helped at that point either, of course.

The national tragedy for Serbs is that Milosevic led them into a political dead-end, and the Serbs en masse repeatedly endorsed him one way or the other. They created the context for their own misfortune, in good part from facile collective opportunism - where did all the TVs and household appliances looted from Bosnia by Arkan actually go, do you think?

All that said, I would agree that in many respects 'Western' policy was bad or worse. But the unbalanced simplifications and zany analogies you use alas do not help us get to a better outcome.

Which is all I have to say on this subject here.

Basically you are pulling rank & you are quite correct that the british government never appointed me an ambassador there. I would argue that that does not prove you the more impartial.

Beyond that you are arguing that the Serbs are wrong because they are the bigger nationality, which if taken seriously would therefore make them "right" in any dispute with NATO & that Milosevic was bad because he was.

Far from being a nationalist (or even a national socialist as you, unoriginally, brand him) you will know that David owen testified at his trial that he was opposed to nationalism. Having read his speech in Kosovo you will know he was proud that Yugoslavia was, then, a multiethnic state. I note you cannot dispute that Serbia alone remains a multi-ethnic state the rest having benn "cleansed" under NATO authority by such openly genocidal ex-Nazi friends of ours as Izetbegovic, at whose court you had the experience of serving as ambassador. Alongside his other friend Osama bin Laden.
No, I am not pulling rank. I am describing my long personal experience dealing with these issues, and asking what yours might be. I await the answer.

You have energetic views. I just wonder how far they are based on grappling in person with these problems with many of the key personalities involved.

I don't see how you can say that I say "that the Serbs were wrong because they are the bigger nationality" (sic). That is not what I wrote. My point is that as the largest community in former Yugoslavia, the Serbs had a fine opportunity to use their overall 'weight' and experience to define how it might evolve in a positive direction.

They did not take it. Indeed, it remains baffling to most experts why Milosevic did not use Serbia's advantages to pursue his goals using guileful diplomacy and normal political/diplomatic methods - it all could have been so different, and heavily in Serbia's favour...
All the anti-Serb drivel is facile bullshit.

"Instead they fell for lumpen national-socialism led by Milosevic."

Anybody who says that simply doesn't know what they are talking about. They are so staggeringly stupid, so senseless, so blind, that they should not be allowed to drive, cook, run their own baths, use knives, or work with children because they are a danger to themselves and others.
I don't accept that it is necessary to have met Izetbegovic to acknowlege that he was an ex-Nazi publicly committed to genocide any more than it is necessary to have met Hitler to be a historian of the Holocaust.

I will leave it to readers to decide whether you did say the Serbs were particularly to blame because they were the largest community.

I am intrigued by what you say about Milosevic's goals. I would be interested in what you think they were. I will also agree that I think Yugoslavia would have been served better by a more guileful & aggressive & less honest leader. However I do not see that supports the claim that NATO's participation in war crimes, genocide & dissections is justified by his lack of guile.
So Charles is "pulling rank" by being someone who knows what he's talking about, compared to you who compares the Lib Dems to the Nazi Party?

I suppose he pulls rank on the credibility scale compared to you (and most other sane people).
"Pulling rank" is the practice of saying that you are right because of who you are rather than producing evidence or logical decudtion. It is certainly superior to merely calling people insane Gareth. There is nothing inherently wrong with comparing the LibDems to the German Nazi party, or indeedcany other political organisation, on the basis of facts. One might expect the LDs credibility to be enhanced by the comparison. It is not my fault that it is not.
Um.. if pulling rank is personal, first-hand experience living with and amongst both sides, then, by all means, pull rank.

It's the difference between thinking you know something based on what you've read, vs. what you've lived.

Neil- You read. Charles lives. Get over it. Clearly you are of Serbian lineage, to so blindly attempt to defend the atrocities of such a horrible group. My gf is German. She's a wonderful person. Doesn't make her a Nazi. She will be the first to admit that the Germans were not the "nicest" people in the '40s. They've learned and grown. Let's hope you, and the evil Serbs, learn and grow to.

Get over it. You're wrong Neil. The majority of the rest of the world knows it.
"She will be the first to admit that the Germans were not the "nicest" people in the '40s."

Gosh what a broadminded German you have grown up to be

"They've learned and grown."

The point is they haven't. If the Germans had really overcome their racism they wouldn't, as soom as they were united & the USSR gone, have turned to supporting Nazis in the genocide against the Serbs, or anybody else. It is so disappointing to see that even after 2 world wars & 3 generations the Germans returned to Nazism as soon as it was possible.

"Let's hope you, and the evil Serbs, learn and grow to."

Gosh, what happened to that broadminded wish not to blame an entire people.

"Clearly you are of Serbian lineage"

Clearly you (A) haven't even attempted to find out & (B) are incapable of even understanding how anybody could be motivated by justice rather than racism.

You give a fine example of what your country now stands for.
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