A Place to Stand

Here's a comment for you in rebuttal to Captain Schouten.

IWPR'S TRIBUNAL UPDATE No. 473, October 20, 2006

SREBRENICA'S SCENES FROM HELL

A Dutch army officer describes the horrors he witnessed in Srebrenica after the enclave was overrun by Serb forces. By Caroline Tosh in The Hague

Lieutenant Colonel Vincentius Egbers told judges in the Srebrenica trial this week about the chaos that ensued shortly after the UN-declared safe area fell to the Serbs on July 11, 1995.

The fall of the enclave, after which some 8,000 men and boys were executed and nearly 30,000 women and children forcibly deported by Bosnian Serb forces, is perhaps the most infamous chapter of the Balkans wars, the events of which were described by the tribunal judges, prosecutors and numerous witnesses testifying in trials related to Srebrenica as "scenes from hell".

The seven accused - former Bosnian Serb Army officers Vujadin Popovic, Ljubisa Beara, Drago Nikolic, Radivoje Miletic, Milan Gvero, Vinko Pandurevic, and former police official Ljubomir Borovcanin - are charged with war crimes connected to events at Srebrenica. Five of the men - Popovic, Beara, Nikolic, Pandurevic, and Borovcanin- are indicted with charges related to genocide.

The indictment against them describes a joint criminal enterprise to "murder the able bodied Muslim men" from Srebrenica, in which Popovic, Beara, Nikolic, Pandurevic, and Borovcanin are accused of being involved, along with fugitive military commander General Ratko "Mladic and others".

It also alleges that "on March 8, President Radovan Karadzic set out...the order to remove the Muslim population from the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves".

"On 11 and 12 July 1995," says the indictment, "the Srebrenica enclave was taken over by VRS [Bosnian Serb Army] and MUP [Ministry of the Interior] troops and the plan to remove the Muslim population from Srebrenica was implemented, along with the plan to murder all the able-bodied men".

By November 1, 1995, the indictment continues, "the entire Muslim population had been either removed or fled from Zepa and Srebrenica and over 7,000 men and boys from Srebrenica had been murdered by VRS and MUP forces".

Egbers, who previously testified in two Srebrenica related cases - the trials of Bosnian Serb general Radislav Krstic in 2000, and Bosnian Serb commander Vidoje Blagojevic in 2004 - served as a Dutch peacekeeping officer in Srebrenica at the time relevant to the indictment.

When the enclave was overrun by Bosnian Serb forces on July 11, Egbers became involved in transporting refugees from the town of Srebrenica to the UN headquarters at Potocari.

>From there, they were deported by Bosnian Serb military and police forces, with the supervision of UN troops, which, he said, had been ordered to assist.

Hundreds of refugees, many of them weak and vulnerable, gathered around the UN base in Srebrenica town, in the blistering afternoon heat, clamoring for a place on the UN vehicles leaving for Potocari, said the witness

"A mother handed over her baby to me. There were the mentally ill...there were people carrying each other on this road to Potocari," he said.

Egbers helped to place the civilians on armored patrol cars going north towards Potocari.

As he drove he was targeted by shelling from Bosnian Serb positions, which, he said, left the refugees "very, very scared".

They arrived in Potocari later that afternoon, and the following day - July 12 - a convoy of UN buses turned up, onto which refugees were loaded and driven towards a destination unknown to Egbers.

"My order was to follow the buses and report what happened," he said.

He described how he left with the first convoy of women and children, accompanied by Mladic and a television crew, and said that he struggled to ensure that the convoy was adequately protected by UN troops.

"We tried to get a soldier on every bus, but only had permission to send one vehicle with all the UN buses," he said.

The convoy passed through the Serb-controlled village of Bratunac, said the witness, where he saw a celebration in full swing.

"There were a lot of people drinking, yelling, screaming. It was completely strange. We had a crisis, yet we were entering a party."

As the convoy proceeded, Egbers described the hundreds of soldiers he saw en route, who were positioned at 20-metre intervals along the road between Bratunac and Konjevic.

Some of these soldiers fired into the woods, but Egbers could hear no return fire, he said.

When asked by the prosecutor to identify which army these troops belonged to, he said he was unsure, but described "a vehicle with a giant wolf head on the side of it" parked nearby.

He said he thought the vehicle belonged to the "Drina Wolves", Bosnian Serb troops commanded by Krstic.

The convoy, said Egbers, was then diverted south at a roadblock at Konjevic.

He then gave a chilling description of what he said he witnessed next.

"I saw some men walking around near the street, with hands on their necks. I saw a football field on my right. I saw Muslim men in the football field. They were sitting on their knees with their hands on their necks."

When asked by the prosecutor to estimate the number of men he saw, he replied, "There were between 100 and 200."
"There were Bosnian Serbs in the neighborhood at that time, and there were men on the football field standing near the men. That must have been the BSA [Bosnian Serb Army]," he continued.

Egbers was asked by the prosecutor to describe what the Muslim men wore.

"They were just civilians. Their things were gathered near the football field - the bags they had been carrying," he said.

In a photograph shown to him by the prosecution, Egbers identified the football field he spoke of. It lay next to the road into Nova Kasaba - a village west of Srebrenica, which is listed in the indictment as being the site of a massacre of more than 130 Muslim men.

The witness went on to explain how the convoy continued on its way before arriving at its final destination, "in the middle of a wood", where the refugees got out the buses.

"The women and children were glad to see me," said Egbers. "They thought they would be killed."

"They made this sign," he said, before swiftly drawing his forefinger across his throat.

The refugees were then "walked by a UN convoy to Muslim areas" nearby.

Egbers was the second former Dutch peacekeeping officer to testify this week.

The trial chamber also heard from Major Robert Franken, who at the time the enclave fell, was deputy commander of the Dutch UN battalion.

This was Franken's fourth appearance at the tribunal, having also testified in the trial of Krstic in 2000, former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic in 2003, and as well as that of Blagojevic in 2004.

This week, the Dutch officer again took the stand to describe how in July 1995, the UN mission in Srebrenica changed from defending the enclave, to protecting the estimated 30,000 refugees within the Potocari compound.

Then, when Srebrenica was overcome by Bosnian Serb forces on July 11, the UN peacekeepers were ordered to assist them in evacuating the refugees from Potocari, said Franken.

The trial continues next week.

Caroline Tosh is an IWPR reporter in The Hague.
 

Captain Schouten said he got to go everywhere arounD Srebrenica & saw & heard no evidence of a massacre. Despite the ominous tones Egbers produces he doesn't actually claim anything more than to have seen some prisoners - not that unusual in war.

Yhe writer claims as a statement of fact that 8,000 Moslems were killed but, once again, no evidence is produced. The writer does not mention the prime genocide at Srebrenica - that of at least 3,800 Serb civilians as they obviously would if making any attempt at impartiality.
 

Another comment for you:

Under ‘Alleged global warming’ above you write:

‘The IPCC report (in 1998) made very extensive use of the Hockeystick graph (showing a current massive upward swing in the warming graph shaped rather like a hockeystick). This has been proven fraudulent…’

Of course and as usual you give no reference for this Olympian statement.

At http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5109188.stm however we find as late as 23 June this year

Backing for 'hockey stick' graph

The Earth was hotter in the late 20th Century than it had been in the last 400 or possibly 1,000 years, a report requested by the US Congress concludes…

It backs some of the key findings of the original study that gave rise to the iconic "hockey stick" graph…

The new report, carried out by a panel of the US-based National Research Council (NRC), largely vindicates the researchers' work, first published in 1998.

So the poor old graph is far from discredited and once again you are shown to be economical with the truth.
 

No the BBC has been economical.

The Hockeystick originally showed global temperature to have flatlined over the last 2 millenia, thereby denying the existence of the late Roman & Medieval warming periods. The evidence for these warmings is overwhelming.

As you can see the first 80% of that claim has now been airbrushed out of existence leaving only the claim that it is warmer now than in 1,600AD which was during the Little Ice Age (& not coincidentally at the start of the Maunder sunspot minimum).

Nobody, least of all those who believe warming is mainly or entirely a function of increased solar activity, ever denied that the Little Ice Age was cold.
 

Still no references Mr C and your argument does not discredit the graph anyway.
 

I used your reference, since that is the only one I can know you accept, to show that even its own supporters no longer hold to the Hockeystick more than 400 rather than 2000 years back which means even they consider it 80% discredited.
 

Telegraph article with graphs. (found via Greeniewatch)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/05/nosplit/nwarm05.xml